ESPN’s CX Transformation: Using AI to Enhance Fan Support with Doug Kramon

Scott Kinka:

Well, hello and welcome to another episode of the Bridgecast. I am thrilled to have with me, Doug Kramon. He’s ESPN’s Head of Customer Care and Fan Experience. That’s a mouthful that I get the title right, Doug?

Douglas Kramon:

You did. Yeah, we’ll go with that. I appreciate the opportunity.

Scott Kinka:

Fantastic. I’m thrilled to talk to you today, especially as you’re super busy right now. This will probably come out in a couple of weeks, but we are filming this directly in the middle of the college football playoff, which I’m sure has got you guys very busy.

Douglas Kramon:

This is one of our busiest times. We’re very proud of the CFP and the college football championship, especially with the expansion that just took place this year. So, there is never a dull moment in what I do at this time of year.

Scott Kinka:

Yeah. I have one Penn State alum and one who’s there right now. So I’m thoroughly enjoying it myself. And, of course, we’re heading into the NFL playoffs, which, you know, my fandom is very well illustrated. I don’t know if the camera is catching all my Eagles gear above. I’m super excited about that, but let’s start there because it’s super interesting. What does fan experience mean in your role? I mean, that’s in the title. You know, normally, when I talk to CX executives, it’s all about customer experience, customer support, and customer care. Fan experience is right in your title. That’s conscious, obviously. What does that mean to you? 

Douglas Kramon:

So, the fan experience is about being both somewhat of a know-it-all because you love something and a love-it-all. So, a fan experience is when you’re a fan, you’re passionate about something, a team, or a player. You could be a fan of anything. It doesn’t have to be sports-related. You could be a fan of an author, for example. It really doesn’t matter. However, it means that there is an emotional connection that you have with someone or something that is a positive one. And that’s our job to maintain that emotional connection, make it stronger if and where possible, and always make sure that we, you know, for what I do happen to make you a better. Type of fan, and I’m sure we’ll talk about some other things. And I have discussed the silly term we use: fans in the stand suits and the suites, and we can get to that. But there are different types of fans. So customer experience, what we call fan experience, is one where we’re able to bring the fans closer to what they love.

Scott Kinka:

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the fan really in your world is understanding your customer persona. Give us that statement again. You said that fans in the stands suit in the suites. What do you mean by that?

Douglas Kramon:

That’s correct. So we always say that our department services the fans in the stands and the suits in the suites. And I did not coin this term. Was it fellow ESPNor Barry Blinn who did? And it is an excellent term. The needs of the fans in the stands can be different than the needs of the suits in the suites. And as such, it really represents the fact that they’re all fans of the game that’s going on, the sporting event. The story that it tells. Now we’re ESPN. We tell the story around the story. The story is about a sporting event, right? The live sports. Live sports are a great storyline, and you never know what’s going to happen next. Well, ESPN is not the sport; it’s not the game, but we are the context around it. We bring the fans as close to that event as possible. And the needs of some fans are very different than the needs of others. And as such, it’s the job of my team to support them all from those that happen to be, you know, conceivably as we’ll say, in the $2,000 seats to those that are in the peanut gallery. And their needs across all different ESPN products happen to be very different. And we have to support them all as if they’re all number one.

Scott Kinka:

Yeah. Doug, how long have you been in your current role?

Douglas Kramon:

The role has evolved through the years I’ve been at ESPN, which is just under 20 years. However, the role has grown considerably, continually, and my work within the company, both ESPN and the Walt Disney Company, has grown. So, it continually evolves, and that’s part of why I love it. So.

Scott Kinka:

Wow. Can you trace a little bit of that history for us? I’m sure there are plenty of people watching this right now; he’s got the gig of all gigs. He’s an ESPN, and he takes care of everybody. Like how did you land where you landed? know, give us, and, maybe a nugget from that, know, something that you learned along the way that maybe you wish you knew quite a long time ago, you know, in that journey.

Douglas Kramon:

Sure. So, landing here was a unique time. was the, it was right after the initial.com boom. Um, so, but you know, when you major in native American archeology, cultural anthropology, you know, of course going to sports, it’s just the natural thing you did. So that was my major. I had no intention of doing what I’m doing today.

Scott Kinka:

Yeah. Yeah, of course.

Douglas Kramon:

I wanted to work for Sotheby’s or Christie’s or Bonham’s or one of the auction houses and really study art, archeology to a degree and Native cultures, Native American cultures. And there was no antiques roadshow back when I graduated. So the opportunities were limited. you know, doing grad school at SMU, which got bounced from the college football playoffs very quickly, unfortunately. yes. So, with that, you know, I recognized that I would have to get my PhD. So halfway through continuing education, I just said, I, you know, how am I going to pay any of this stuff back as an archeologist? That’s just, whereas in, you speak to folks today, many of them think I dug up dinosaurs, and that’s paleontology, and that’s totally different.

Scott Kinka:

Sorry about that by the way. was there. It was fun.

Douglas Kramon:

It didn’t go very far. I, I had the opportunity. I have always liked tech and early tech, and mobile technology was new back then, mobile technology in the mid-nineties. And I had an opportunity to start with the predecessor to AT&T Wireless and learn the ins outs and bouts of the mobile industry. And I was very fortunate. So I learned mobile technology, and then at AT&T, I had the opportunity to become a member at work, I guess. Take courses at the AT&T School of Business, which is like a mini master’s degree in learning how to do certain things. I also selected how to build contact centers. So, I learned how to do that. And in return, they said, you will build contact centers where we tell you, and you will live there. And I did, I moved to Jacksonville, Florida, built contact centers down there, moved to Fenton, Missouri, and did some work there. And I really learned how to do something that again, I never had any intention of doing. However, through that and staying with technology, contact centers and customer service have always been part of what I have done. Let’s go to 2005, right before the iPhone launched. Disney decided to launch a mobile phone. ESPN was coming out with its own phone, and before the iPhone, before app landscapes, you had to have only one app on one phone, and the phone was dedicated to that. So like MTV had a phone, we had a phone, or I think VH1 had a phone. The whole idea was a bit wonky, and it lasted for about a year, and then the iPhone came out and put it all out of business. But ESPN came to a call and said, hey, we need to make a customer care dynamic for this mobile experience. I was working at Intel Comm Data Comm Technology back then. I made the jump, and it was so much fun. The opportunity to build something from scratch that is all about the sports fan. And, and I, you know, I say this, what I love so much about what I do is understanding the sports fan. In college, I talk about this periodically in talks that I do as the bedside ethnologist. When I was in college studying Native American cultures, oftentimes, to get to know Native Americans had no written text. And because of that, there’s no real way you can study their history like you could with the Greeks and the Mycenaeans. the Truskens, the Romans, you couldn’t really do that with the Native Americans. And as such, you would have to look at the environment that they were in, geography, et cetera, doing the digging, or you’d speak to those that were, know, those that are living today, you know, who were from their ancestors. So, the Navajo, the Hopi of today, you’d learn so much by speaking to them and learning about their life. their history and the things that motivated them. The sports fan is really similar in the sense that when you’re a bad side ethnologist, you’re looking for a good story well told. When you’re a sports fan, and you think of a great something, something that, you know, you know, a great event that took place, you know, the Tyrann catch during the Superbowl against Brady, right? Way back when against the Patriots, that’s it. And you tell that story. you see people’s eyes light up because emotion kicks in. And that’s a good story well told. And so I like working with fans in customer service for ESPN, working with the fans in the stands and the suits and the suites because they tell great stories and we want to bring them closer to what they love. So, I feel like where I started was somewhat of a natural evolution from where I am today.

Customer Experience is About Effortless Elegance, Not Just Support

Scott Kinka:

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. What’s next for you and for the team? Like what are you guys working on?

Douglas Kramon:

Well, we’re working on what everyone is working on at the beginning of 2025. And that is trying to determine how we can, you know, cram as much generative AI into everything we do, which I say that lightly, that’s not our goal. I am looking to see how we can do better and look at the low-hanging fruit where I can utilize generative AI to really enhance how I support the fan. And it’s enhanced, not replaced. And we can talk through that because humans really are what it’s all about. But generative AI can do so much. So we’re looking heavily at that because our products are constantly evolving and we’re constantly entering kind of new spaces where customer service has to evolve. So that’s a big thing we’re up to.

Scott Kinka:

Yeah. Yeah, I have some notes from that. Well, I want to get back into that in a minute. Um, I just want to wrap it here. Obviously, there’s a reason why we’re talking. This is not the commercial part. I just want to kind of legitimize our chat. If you will you know, you’re running CX there. I’m at Bridgepoint. You’ve engaged with the Bridgepoint team. Tell us a little bit about that work.

Douglas Kramon:

Yeah. I, in my world, for what I do, we’re not an army of humanity. Simply put, we aren’t; we’re customer service, primarily a cost center. Yes. Can we do upsells and cross-sells? Of course. We’re not exactly where I’d like us to be in terms of the technology stack to allow me to do that in terms of commerce, but, we are an operating expense. As such, I need to be successful in my relationships with partners, big and small. I create a coalition of the willing, and my team force multiplies. We become better, bigger and stronger through effective partnerships. And when it comes to my tech stack, which is a huge part of what I do, I really need expertise that’s simply affordable. And not only that, but expertise that is elastic. You know, when I look at Bridgepoint, you guys are experts in so many elements of the C-Cast tech stack, not just voice. Obviously, you have data. You have, for example, if I look at, know, an Omni-channel tech stack, SMS, chat, phone, email, web form, social, self-service, generative, all of these things backending into a business intelligence tool, backending that into Snowflake. The list goes on. It’s hard to keep my, I always refer to my tech stack as a tad angry, and I don’t like to have an angry tech stack. I need to work with partners that understand the tech stack and can keep it calm. They need to have a robust understanding across the CCAS omni-channel, as BridgePoint does. Oh, and BridgePoint knows the BPO environment as well, which is core to what I do.

Scott Kinka:

Class of 2021. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Thank you very much for that. Let’s get back to, mean, customer experience is so interesting because we’ve used to say service and support, and we put in this experience thing. And I think that’s, you know, that’s really important for brands who generally do kind of unattractive things. If you get where I’m going, right? You’re like, I don’t want this to feel like support. I want it to feel like an experience, but the reality is that nobody wants to call about their wireless bill, you know? not picking on the industry that you came from. But in a lot of ways, you know, if people are engaging with you, they kind of want to talk to you. I would guess that they would many times. But let’s just take it to the customer experience. Let’s just talk about that phrase. What does that mean? I mean, you’ve mentioned, you know, fan experience, but customer experience as an industry defines it for me. Why have we changed the monitor?

Douglas Kramon:

Well, I think we’re getting closer to the customer than ever before the technology allows us to. So, you know, decades ago, companies used to be pretty far from the customer, which, you know, the customer right now, I look at the opportunity for me to literally reach out and have the ability to converse with them and understand what matters to them. And oftentimes we’re seeing F level of effort is really what matters, right? How much effort must I, the customer, exert to utilize your product? That is what it’s all about. You know, a service, a product, an experience that somebody pays for should be elegant. And I use that term a lot, elegant. And if we talk about what’s elegant, in my mind, what I think may be elegant may be different, Scott, than what you think of as something that’s elegant. But the description of it is something elegant. When I think of something elegant, I think of something that I can relate to. It’s easy to understand. It’s intuitive. I appreciate it for what it is. It speaks to me, and that can be art. That can be functional. It can be an iPhone. It could be something at a museum. All of those things are things that relate to me. so elegance is something I like to say today, customer experience is allowing the company or the brand, should say the brand, because I work in marketing, to have an elegant conversation with our clientele, our fans, one where we both understand the value of what I am offering and what you are expecting from us. And that means your level of effort also should be as low as possible. And Scott, customer service is all about the level of effort. No one likes calling. No one likes emailing. No one likes chatting or doing an SMS, right? Because you’re waiting in the queue. Then you have to state your situation. Big pain in the butt. So we’re constantly speaking to our fans at these events. So my team is we’re blessed. This is a fun part. We get to be at the events with the fans in the stands and the suits and the sweets. We get to ask them how you’re utilizing our service. When you have an issue, we will go through examples. How are you reaching out to customer service? How and what are the issues that you experienced? How would you wish to reach out to customer service? We learn from them, and we aggregate this. We utilize business intelligence tool sets, and we then determine the best way we should communicate directly with the fan because it’s on their terms. They’re telling us. And that’s most important, listening to them on their terms. And that’s how we’re able to make some really elegant communication tools. Because it’s what they want. We listen to them.

Where AI Fits in Customer Service—And Where It Doesn’t

Douglas Kramon:

That’s what AI cannot.

Scott Kinka:

Yeah. AI doesn’t have empathy, ultimately, at the end of the day. Exactly.

Douglas Kramon:Scott Kinka:

Doug, for people that don’t know, you know, like the overall tech stack and product stack that you guys are supporting, just quickly to put this in a little bit of context, as some people may just be thinking it’s CSP and its content. For example, what are the other types of products that you’re engaging with customers on just for those who might not know the product set as well?

Douglas Kramon:

Yeah. So think of it as pillars. Like my team, the core of what we offer is that we have the watch pillar. So that’s all things streaming services, your TV services through your direct-to-consumer like ESPN plus, or your cable services, we call MVPDs or digital MVPDs, through Hulu plus live TV, YouTube TV. How are you getting your live sports, your sports channels, and sports packages? That’s Play. Play Pillar. We offer a multitude of fantasy games. Fantasy football, baseball, basketball, hockey, mini-games like tournament challenges. Millions and millions of players. I have to support every player with regard to fantasy support. We have the read pillar. All things editorial. We’re pushing out hundreds of articles every week on all things sports. We create dialogue, discussion and debate. That’s what ESPN does. I have to support all of those and all the articles, you know, things that don’t render correctly, incorrect players, incorrect teams, incorrect logos. There’s tons of that. It just happens. I have to support the engagement pillar and social and social media moderation. So we have to moderate all the social channels. And I have the listen pillar, listen pillars, podcasts, and radio stations that push ESPN. That’s the products that we support.

Scott Kinka:

Yeah. Got it. Got it. Makes sense. So, as you’re thinking about this moving forward, I mean, let’s go back to you mentioning AI earlier, and we spent quite a bit of time on our pre-call talking about, you know, how you’re thinking about it. I mean, obviously, you’ve mentioned AI is part of that plan. I think the question really is, you know, the extent to which it’s real and how you are using it today. So just, know, what are you thinking about as you’re beginning to build AI into the experience, into the support experience?

Douglas Kramon:

Yeah. So we’re looking primarily at AI, which is so new, so new. No one as a practitioner of customer service or, for example, anything even in marketing, back when, you know, we were in school and doing what we did and even with companies really understands the ins and outs of generative AI. It’s new to everybody. Our lawyers don’t necessarily know the answer. They need to learn about this. Marketers need to learn about this. Those in sales need to learn about it. So it’s new to a lot as such. It comes with a lot of promise; a lot of companies out there are knocking on our door and offering us the miracle of what generative AI can offer. And it’s to the point of where it’s, it’s so, it really is. I have to put a closed-for-business sign-up oftentimes. Because it’s just overwhelming. So we’re looking at generative AI in a way that I think many companies are. It’s low-hanging fruit to start, right? What can generative AI do that I would not want an army of my employees doing because it’s more busy work, it’s rote, etc.? So successful examples of low-hanging fruit AI would be things like using LLMs to translate product documentation, perhaps in different languages, using machine learning to build catalogues and categories for easy knowledge fetch, using classification algorithms or even chatbots with personalized conversation elements and even things like anomaly detection. Humans can do all of this. And oftentimes it takes a lot of humans to do it. So I’m looking basically for any issue that involves a routine process or set template with a well-defined target. That’s regenerative AI. Everything else is still human to human. Why? Look at the industry I’m in. And again, we talked about it’s got being with the fans in the stands and the suits and the suites. I need to show my team or their sports fans just like you. When the, you know, for example, Penn State loses, you know, we may have folks that feel what you’re going through with, and I’m not saying they’re going to lose, but if they do, or when they win, they’re going through the highs and the lows of emotion because they’ve been there. AI has never been there, never. So to have a conversation where we can leave something saying, you can always talk to ESPN. We’re sports fans just like you. We might be a bigger lumbering sports fan, but we’re sports fans just like you.

Scott Kinka:

You’re not helping.

Yeah, right. No genuine empathy. Correct. It can mimic. It doesn’t have genuine enthusiasm, excitement, or authenticity.

Scott Kinka:

Yeah, yeah. You mentioned on our pre-call that I like the phrase, and you’ve kind of said it here thematically, but on our pre-call, I use the word, and we’re staying away from agentic work with AI. And obviously, by that, you mean, you know, not replacing the agent, supporting them. I think you use the analogy like, you know if we can use it to make super soldiers, we’re in better shape, right? But we’re not replacing the guys in the front line.

Douglas Kramon:

Yes. Yes. Yeah. Correct. We’re not through agentic is conceivably where it’s, it’s an autopilot. It’s not a co-pilot. So agentic is where, you know, there’s no gatekeeper tracking, to speak, you know, watching over the AI. It’s able to have a full-blown conversation. Probably does, you know, it can do commerce flow work. You can actually make decisions and make changes using RPA or something like that. That’s, that’s really, really. That can impact the brand in, in, in, in ways that may or may not be so good. Whereas right now it’s too much of a risk. And I don’t necessarily feel there’s a need for that because the human still can offer experiences where there’s a a response that can be a cathartic response from the fan that’s so appreciative. Or one that allows them to feel assured. Rest assured that, you know, we have your back, this will work, and we’re going to comp you if we need to. You know, you’ll be able to watch you, you’ll see no issues. We apologize, obviously, for any issues you may have experienced. We believe we’ve worked through this. And it’s human to human because, after all, they invested time and effort reaching out to you. So I need to make sure if it’s a human speaking to you, let’s make them a super, superhuman. Use the generative AI to augment them, not be agentic. Copilot, we’ll do a copilot. So, the elegant thing that generative AI can do, is accurate knowledge fetch. The agent should never have to go to a knowledge base anymore, right? Based on rapid analysis, keyword extraction, rake or whatever, a of other things, know, lemmatization, et cetera. the, the gender day I should know that’s this article and this article and combine the two and make an elegant response for the, for the agent. And it does, can we use that? Also, other things, disposition and tagging. Why should the care agent at the end say this contact was about fantasy then secondary fantasy football tertiary fantasy football waiver wire based 

Summarization, summarize the conversation to go back into our daily because the agent shouldn’t spend two minutes typing it up. Agents that are of Gen Z and the younger Gen Y, they don’t know how to type very well. They didn’t take typing like I did in high school. And so it takes them a long time to summarize. AI? No time at all.

The Future of Streaming and AI: Solving Bundle Fog and Enhancing Fan Experiences

Scott Kinka:

Yeah. I never thought of all. You brought up an interesting point and then I just want to get into some fun at the end, but I think this is a good spot to go on AI. The conversations I’m constantly having, I mean, I get involved with customers who sort of think of AI and a large language model as a way to almost solve for bad documentation, right? They’re like, they’re like, well, we don’t have the knowledge base is not well organized. So, I have all this call recording data. So let’s turn the bottle on and, and, know, I felt like I had a conversation with someone yesterday and I ended up mentioning it in an intro to a pod that I’m going to, we’re going to release in the next couple of days. Um, it was an interesting conversation where he said, you know, if you didn’t take advantage of the last hype cycle around big data, You’re not prepared for this hype cycle around AI. Interested in your comment on that.

Douglas Kramon:

Well, I agree with that statement. Our data lake is massive. utilizing a BI tool like Tableau, a DOMA, et cetera, we’re able to so all the conversations we have, we’re able to aggregate useful information from. And that’s where we’re able to immediately find the needle in the so-called haystack in ways that would take an army of humanity beforehand. So I think we’re already there. If you have, you know, if you have all of this dark data, that’s not actionable. Well, yeah, you’ve missed the boat. You have to go then to create a dynamic where you have a model that allows you to analyze the data that you’ve aggregated. Tens hundreds of thousands, millions of conversations across the Omni-channel. So yeah, you have to have been there in the last cycle of big data to be able to utilize that today. Yes, you could have a somewhat disorganized knowledge base and have generative AI search that knowledge base and really pull out something organic. And it can do that. So that’s not bad. But there’s many, many more elements that you need to do. So what we do is something called catharsis scoring. A catharsis experience is like an aha experience. you have a catharsis; it’s something that’s an, my God, an aha moment. Not necessarily good, not necessarily bad. It could be either, but that’s where the gems are found. So with our cathartic score model, where we are using generative AI, we’re able to utilize AI to search for, for example, really unique sentiment elements where we saw a dynamic change between when the conversation started and when the conversation ended based on what the fans said in their CSAT, customer satisfaction survey, and in the conversation that they have with the agent and that ah-ho moment then we can deliver to our leadership, whatever department they may be in, executive leadership, and suddenly care has a great seat at the table. We can say, these aren’t coming from me. Hear it from our fans directly. And when we share it with them, what is that that we’re sharing? A good story, well told. When the fans tell it in that way with emotion, we are able to get action in ways that in the past have been much harder. Because I was able to find that needle in that haystack almost instantaneously. Whereas it would have taken forever to get it beforehand. And by then we’d be fighting a different fire.

Scott Kinka:

Yeah, that’s amazing. Yeah. This was super fun. Before we close, I would love to just hit you with a couple of fun questions that I generally hit people with. So maybe this one’s not so much fun. It’s, but it’s a good bridge from the tech talk into the fun. Um, give me a shameless prediction for the next 12 to 18 months. It doesn’t need to be about tech. It can be, it doesn’t need to be about sports, but it can be, you know, whatever. I want to look back in a year, and we’ll see if you’re right.

Douglas Kramon:

Yeah. I would say, well, I’ll stick with General AI. I do believe it’s a little bit like the tool of praise of the 1630s. There are so many companies out there that are all about agentic. I’m not going to name them, but there are so many. And with that, there is a gap. We are still clients of theirs, living in a world of humanity, supporting humanity, right? Agentic isn’t An answer by itself, right? There needs to be a solution that supports the full tech stack. And that tech stack is primarily run on like Salesforce, ServiceNow, Zendesk, know, NiceX1, whatever. And Genesis. You can’t just replace that with something agentic. So I think you’re going to see, you know, a giant we’re really high levels of speculation now with generative AI and the tulip craze like tulips didn’t really do anything for humanity. But gen AI actually can in a positive way. it is different. It’s it’s got to be something that is more manicured. And it’s not there yet in terms of how can I use it in bringing it in. Now, all the companies I just mentioned they do they are launching Generate AI solutions too, but there’s a ton that isn’t them that are doing it as well There’s going to be a giant shakeout, and I think you’re going to see in 12 to 18 months far fewer numbers of providers of this service And and much better more manicured solution. I mean, that is what I think is a given, I think you know. Yeah, I think that’s a big one other than that prediction. Streaming, I wish I could say is going to be easier for you to, as the fan to find what you’re looking for. But I fear bundle fog. You know, the, the, you’re buying different bundles is only, is still going to be around. And it’s my team’s job to help eliminate bundle fog and bundle confusion. Where can I watch this? When can I watch this? Is it on, is it on ESPN? Is it on Peacock? Is it on Paramount? Is it on Amazon? my goodness. And we’re working to solve that. But there’s so much dynamic change in the industry. I worry that bundle fog may in fact, a year from now still be present, but dang, I’m going to be doing everything I can to change that.

Scott Kinka:

Yeah. I appreciate that. Yeah. I definitely deal with it as an early cord cutter. I appreciate that. haven’t had a, I haven’t had a content bundled with my cable service for about 15 years. So I’m with you.

Douglas Kramon:

Yeah, and look, good luck finding, you where do you watch the NFL? Yeah, you know, that game could be on Amazon. That game could be on Netflix. That game could be on ESPN, could be on CBS, or on Peacock. That’s a challenging dynamic. Where to watch in the moment when you want to watch. We want to fix that.

Scott Kinka:

Yeah. Who knows, Definitely. Gotcha. Tell me something that you know and you practice in your day-to-day executive work and as a business leader that you really wish you knew 15 years ago.

Douglas Kramon:

I so I carry around a line level. and those who know me, so a little line level, when you’re trying to hang up a picture if you don’t have a laser, and honestly, who does, I guess? Cell phones will soon be able to have an app that does that. they might already, but a line lab, but it’s for the analogy, the line level always had an old school line level is water with a bubble in the middle. And when you’re trying to put the picture up, the bubble needs to be in the middle. And if it is, your picture will be straight. I live my life, and this is from an old leader that I had whom I thought was wonderful. To me, the only thing that matters in work really is is it’s a tripod. It’s, it’s feeling valued and challenged. It’s people, and it’s pay, right? Those three things. And I, as a leader, kind of control all of that. So I need to make sure that from my employee base, their emotional state is in as close to the middle as possible, right? Work-life balance is always something where you want that bubble to be as close to the middle as possible. It’s very hard. And so I’m constantly, and I give a line level to my employees, as a representation of, you need to speak to me when you’re concerned that your bubble is no longer in the middle. I want to make sure that I can sense when your bubble is no longer in the middle because I need to understand what I am doing with regard to is there a people problem? Are you feeling motivated, valued and challenged? Is it a pay problem? Or is it something more personal on the home, family side, or personal side that we need to address? So I’m very open in regards to being transparent on that front. I, know, early on those skills, you know, you don’t really learn until you’re, you know, facing the fire and stepping on those hot coals and having a leader that allowed me to share this information, my truths with them by giving me that line level. I do the same, and it makes the conversation more approachable. Employees appreciate that, and I certainly do, too, and I think that truly helps. So that’s valuable.

Scott Kinka:

Doug, you know I love about that is not just the analogy, which I love the analogy, but the idea of giving your employees a common context by which to have the uncomfortable conversation. You know, like I think the hardest part for employees in a situation like that is they don’t know how to start the conversation. Right? So if you, if you give everybody that common context, you’re like, I’m sure somebody just feels comfortable walking up to you and going at my life is not level. My bubble’s not in the middle right now. Like at least, you know, it gives them a way to open a really difficult conversation that, listen, if you’re not used to difficult conversations, it’s really hard to start one. You know what I mean? So it’s, love, I love that as not just an analogy, but sort of a safe space, you know, shared experience for everybody. I totally dig that. What are you reading right now? If you have something interesting that we would, we can put it in the liner notes.

Douglas Kramon:

Exactly. Thomas Pinchon’s Against the Day is a really, really difficult read and I’ve always wanted to try one of his books. They’re like monsters. But, you know, it’s a really interesting read, and it’s very hard. I don’t know if I’ll ever finish it. So, it’s a fascinating read about this.

Scott Kinka:

Okay. So it’s just constantly on your end table, right?

Douglas Kramon:

of young kids that are balloon adventurers at the time, the late 1800s when ballooning was taking off, and the world, the United States was in a time of strife. Unions were just starting. Union busting was brutal. The Industrial Revolution was upon us about to begin. Time was really changing, and it was a fascinating time to kind of see the United States with the eyes of these kids of these adventurers, kind of like the Huckleberry Fins of a little bit later. But it’s really cool to see what the adventures are. Incredibly difficult writing, though. But so far, I love it. Really, I love good stories well told, and this is something that I just find to be really good storytelling.

Scott Kinka:

Yeah. Fantastic. Good stories, well told. All right, one last fun question. what the, the dystopian future depends, you know, descends on us. You can decide which one, depending on which kind of, what kind of movies you like, right? Well, there’s one app that’s still functioning on your phone. You get to choose which one, which one is it? You don’t get to say the ESPN app, by the way. That would be the obvious answer.

Douglas Kramon:

my goodness. An app. Yeah.Noo, no, no. Well, the ESPN app wouldn’t really work if there were other humans because it functions at sports-related events. So I can’t say that. So, assuming it’s still working, it would have to be an insurer on Pinterest or Instagram because I use Instagram almost like Pinterest.

Scott Kinka:

100%. Yes.

Douglas Kramon:

I have specific interests, right? So I love studying, I love vintage guitars and basses. Vintage Gibson’s made between 1952 and 1960. And I love to learn everything about them, including the woods that were used and how they sound. And I’ll still have that interest. So to be able to understand and learn more, because that’s all that’s gonna be left, a curious mind. I want to retain that curious mind, and the way to keep that curiosity is by learning from other people’s stories. So even if they’re old and those people are dead, I could still learn their stories from what’s on a little bit of TikTok. TikTok’s a little different, but mainly Instagram and Pinterest. But so more Instagram than Pinterest.

Scott Kinka:

Yeah. The good news is that even if new content is not being made, it’ll take you the rest of your life to get through what’s out there. You know, so, I love that. Remind me to send you a picture of, my grandfather’s 1918 Epiphone Dreadnought that’s hanging on my wall on the other side here. It’s a, you could tell me all about the woods. Super cool. I had to have the bridge remade, and Ebony cracked. Great stuff.

Douglas Kramon:

Exactly right. So I would work with that. Yeah. All of, I mean, that’s early Gibson’s even pre-Lloyd Lure, who was, think, 1919 to 1920, like 24, 25, where he made those famous F5 mandolins and all of that. But yeah, that’s an incredible time period for stringed instruments with Gibson.

Scott Kinka:

Yeah, that’s amazing. Well, Doug, this has been super amazing. What a great conversation. I completely appreciate your time. Thank you for joining me here on this episode of The Bridgecast.

Douglas Kramon:

Love it. Thank you, Scott. The pleasure is all mine. I do appreciate the time.

Scott Kinka:

You got it. Thanks so much. We’ll talk soon.

Douglas Kramon:

Take care.